tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8912756.post4743600341730586800..comments2023-06-09T11:52:06.321-04:00Comments on Hoopinion: Production Is In the Eye of the BeholderBret LaGreehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12000566742639583055noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8912756.post-2498503205805653702011-02-08T19:01:26.554-05:002011-02-08T19:01:26.554-05:00LazyBum, James --
Those are great ideas. Let me t...LazyBum, James --<br /><br />Those are great ideas. Let me think about how (if?) I could get the necessary data to break things down those particular ways.Bret LaGreehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12000566742639583055noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8912756.post-11958028005338998532011-02-08T16:59:14.437-05:002011-02-08T16:59:14.437-05:00I would be more interested to see what the product...I would be more interested to see what the production rate of the 5 players on the floor broken down to the players who have played the point guard position. Bibby's worth is not in the numbers he puts up but how he helps the other guys on the floor. Rather it be setting a screen or telling them to move to the correct spot. Do the main scorers on the floor have a easier time scoring because he is there. Maybe the main guys feel more comfortable with him who knows. The best play the Hawks run is a pick and roll with Bibby and Horford, it seems to always get a basket. But to consider Teague as a good or even average defender I think is being generous. Bibby may be a bad defender and Teague may have all the tools to be a good one. But he does not show the ability to defend the backup point guards any better than Bibby. Bibby looks tired out there right now, I don't understand why he is playing so many minutes when he is obviously fatigued. You can tell just by how he shoots. So Teague needs to get 15 to 20 minutes a night depending on if he is effective it only makes sense. Or trade him.jlabombhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12903553791175617799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8912756.post-27337337442086573042011-02-08T14:53:08.641-05:002011-02-08T14:53:08.641-05:00just a quick clarification on this point:
"al...just a quick clarification on this point:<br />"also suspect that bibby knows how to initiate and exploit wrinkles in the motion offense better than teague (hopefully!)"<br /><br />i didn't mean to suggest that bibby executes the offense more effectively than teague(the stats you posted show otherwise) but maybe LD can run a lot more and more complicated sets with bibby in, whereas he may run simpler sets with teague inShah Labshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13952771251560851009noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8912756.post-69413112353445576012011-02-08T14:46:54.441-05:002011-02-08T14:46:54.441-05:00there is one more caveat to comparing teague's...there is one more caveat to comparing teague's treatment with maynor's treatment, in that we have guards jc, jj who can play point, while OKC doesn't. i also suspect that bibby knows how to initiate and exploit wrinkles in the motion offense better than teague (hopefully!)<br /><br />one stat i think interesting would be how successful we are at converting on our pick an rolls. (bret, if you have any info here, it would be appreciated!) and compare that to our success rate at converting post-up shots when the floor is spaced with spot up shooters like bibby and jc<br /><br />then maybe we can figure out if teague's penetration is more effective than bibby's 'spacing'Shah Labshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13952771251560851009noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8912756.post-48694722265664220822011-02-08T11:12:26.681-05:002011-02-08T11:12:26.681-05:00Xavier --
I suspect whatever difficulty Bibby has...Xavier --<br /><br />I suspect whatever difficulty Bibby has in putting up numbers due to the quality of players he's facing is mitigated by the fact that he plays the vast majority of his minutes alongside Horford and Smith and Johnson.<br /><br />Teague may be facing second-stringers (not always, as Larry Drew kept on the bench for a week then brought him out to face Chris Paul two weeks ago) but he's also had to play alongside Josh Powell, Jordan Crawford, Mo Evans, and Damien Wilkins a lot.<br /><br />As I don't expect the usage of either Bibby or Teague to change, I think this is just an interesting subject for us to discuss rather than a practical consideration but if some evidence (either way) presents itself, I'll gladly address it.Bret LaGreehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12000566742639583055noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8912756.post-7189766019263864572011-02-08T09:02:14.303-05:002011-02-08T09:02:14.303-05:00So LD complains about consistency from Teague, yet...So LD complains about consistency from Teague, yet refuses to play him consistent minutes?<br /><br />The mind boggles.<br /><br />Bibby couldn't defend a buffet line from a motivated senior citizen at this point. I really can't understand why LD keeps Teague's minutes to a laughable minimum.jrauchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03064708627368143691noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8912756.post-45786795012742964952011-02-07T23:54:41.035-05:002011-02-07T23:54:41.035-05:00To me, the key is that Teague can (sometimes) take...To me, the key is that Teague can (sometimes) take players off the dribble from the top of the arc, creating good opportunities for close range shots for guys like Smoove and Marvin, or for longer kickouts to JJ or JC. This is the key to most NBA teams. We could run an effective pick and roll through Teague and, I think, end up being a more productive offense than Bibby sitting a corner, "spreading" the floor, and waiting for the ball. This line up (of inserting Teague more often with the starters) would challenge opposing coaching staffs a whole lot more than our current "motion" offense. I think the metrics stick, despite the relevant points raised by Xavier. And as to Bibby's defensive value, it is really close to nil, seeing as how he regularly allows the scheme to break down by getting badly beaten by his man. Defensively, there's no way to put Bibby over Teague's length and quickness, as shown with the blocked shots metric.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06534885613713445127noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8912756.post-13178432980636451782011-02-07T22:22:01.547-05:002011-02-07T22:22:01.547-05:00I agree that there are situations in which Teague ...I agree that there are situations in which Teague would be better suited than Bibby and therefore should play more minutes, but aren't the advanced metrics used to compare Bibby/Teague kind of misleading? I mean the majority of Bibby's minutes are vs. starters (generally better offensive & defensive players) while Teague is matched up vs. 2nd string players. Maybe I'm wrong but if Bibby and Teague switched roles I still think Bibby would outperform Teague at this point in Teague's career using these same metrics. Also I'm not sure the % of the teams' assists Bibby has while playing but playing along side JJ should decrease Bibby's amount while Teague plays along side JC who shoots more than JJ should increase his assist %.Xavierhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05292355642716305495noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8912756.post-55047910942079556972011-02-07T18:32:29.522-05:002011-02-07T18:32:29.522-05:00I think though that most statistics (including &qu...I think though that most statistics (including "advanced metrics") will tend to underestimate Bibby's value (btw, I'm not trying to say he's that great; just better than Teague). Reason being that at this point Bibby is a spot up shooter. His standing on the three point line keeps his man an extra step away from helping on Joe, Josh, Jamal, or whoever else. On the other hand, Teague's defender is free to roam as Teague is a non-shooting threat and not good enough to be the main creator on offense.<br /><br />Just saying that "advanced metrics" may be get at measuring some things, but probably miss some of Bibby's offensive value.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8912756.post-68250989260468321382011-02-07T14:35:42.421-05:002011-02-07T14:35:42.421-05:00Andrew,
I think its been pretty obvious this year...Andrew,<br /><br />I think its been pretty obvious this year that the current coaching staff doesn't use any advanced metrics to evaluate their squad (at least by their comments). Bret has pointed this out often this year. But Smoove is the greatest spot up shooter in the L and Jamal and Bibbys effort on the defensive end don't show up in the box score. <br /><br />Its truly maddening.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01318668524498980614noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8912756.post-47181420373378698102011-02-07T11:19:30.671-05:002011-02-07T11:19:30.671-05:00This may seem like a ridiculous question, but is t...This may seem like a ridiculous question, but is there anyway you could relay this information to Larry Drew or anyone on the coaching staff? Is it possible they don't know this already? Do the Hawks pay for the people to find out this information?Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13855192438843995133noreply@blogger.com